Off subject: Anyone else having a problem with post-editing? For some reason sentences and paragraphs get duplicated and repeated a paragraph further down when I try to go in and make small corrections. I think my last edit caught most auto-duplications, but it is a puzzlement...
Juan Viejo2
JoinedPosts by Juan Viejo2
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74
Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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74
Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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Juan Viejo2
TMS - thanks for "reminiscing" and bringing this back to the top. I missed this whole conversation that took place 3 years ago even though I popped in on occasion.
Most of this conversation relates to what happened from the late 1960s to the early 1980s - which I was close to but not directly involved. I recognized very early (even as a teenage JW) that the Watchtower seemed to evolve every ten years. I was active during the decades of the 1950s and 60s, but was also closely connected during the rest of the 20th century.
The personality and mood of Jehovah's Witnesses came out of the somber 1940s into the amazing growth and expansion of the 1950s. Life was actually pretty good for young JWs in the 1950s and early 1960s. But the clamps began to tighten in late 1960s.
I remember that early on there were about three dozen public talks that were rotated a couple of times each year at the Kingdom Halls. We had printed handbills that we handed out when we went door-to-door that had the speaker's name printed on them. We often used them at the door to start our conversation - before we introduced the newest magazines (Saturday mornings) or books and bibles (Sunday mornings). The public talks were often interesting and enjoyable becaue each speaker was able to flesh out the Society's outline and inject some occasional moments that could bring you to tears of either sadness or laughter. The talks were about 55 minutes long and were all different to hear in their own way.
The "elders" were not called "elders" in those days. They were called "servants." They were chosen mostly because of their maturity and skills as speakers, but many were truly saint-like and wanted only to serve the congregation (called "companies" in those early days). My father was a "servant" in those days and he was trained to never criticize, but only to show love and offer counsel to those who asked for or needed help.
Yes, we all lived with restrictions compared to non-JWs. But there was also a lot of consideration for those who served well but did not tow the line 100%. Occasionally when we were teens we would have dance parties - doing the "Twist" and the "Pony" and the "Stroll" - while sharing soda pop and fun food (and even doing a little necking out in the backyard).
Sports were discouraged, but my father (a "servant") was insistent that my brother and I were going to play Little League baseball and other school sports as long as they did not interfere with our meeting nights. While I only played parts of two years due to bad knees, my younger brother played for four years with and against Bobby Bonds and Dusty Baker when he was in Little League - both later becoming superior players in the major leagues. The biggest thrills my father ever had was watching my 10-year old brother hit "homers." He'd even brag about it to the other "servants" at the next KH meeting and never worried about being disfellowshipped or reproved for allowing us to play sports. That was just considered his "personal decision" and he would have to answer to Jehovah for his decisions. Dad was not afraid that Jehovah would judge him too harshly.
The mood changed dramatically in the 1970s. Everything seemed to have more restrictions. That's when I first saw small children and babies brought to the Kingdom Hall and not allowed to have a doll or a coloring book to keep their attention while the adults listened to the talks. Who in Watchtower Hell came up with that idea? My own wife was actually encouraged to divorce me (which she eventually did) because "Armageddon was coming in 1975 and she should not be married to a DF'd non-believer." They didn't call us apostates in those days - they called us "evil ones," those "who rejected Jehovah and his coming kingdom." They had her terrified that sleeping and living with me would cause Jehovah to look upon her as someone not fully dedicated to his service.
They didn't call us "apostates" in those days - they called us "evil ones" or those "who rejected Jehovah and his coming kingdom." They had mny wife terrified that sleeping and living with me would cause Jehovah to look upon her as someone not fully dedicated to his service and would destroy our children to eventually punish me.
The 1970s were quite different from the 1980s - and some JWs actually believed that "1984" (a year pulled out of George Orwell's ass) was in fact, even more significant than 1975, being 70 years from 1914. Some JWs that I knew changed personalities completely during those years. Servants were now "elders" and started to throw their weight around - looking for any reason to "counsel" and "correct" other JWs in their Kingdom Hall. My father resigned as an elder several times because he was under pressure from the other elders to try to find fault with other JWs, especially the younger ones.
So while I had many good memories and some fun times growing up a JW, when I left I was done with them completely - even though I had no idea (or even cared) then how bad their doctrines were or how political the upper echelons of the society had become. I never heard of Ray Franz until 20 years later - only that my father told me that "some apostates inside Bethel tried to take over the organization." It was about 1985 when my hate for the organization really began to boil - but I just went on with my life and didn't give a shit about what was going on inside the organization. I was just glad that I was able to get my three daughters completely out and away from the JWs while they were still young teens. They all grew up happy and normal thanks to my decision.
I was just glad that I was able to get my three daughters completely out and away from the JWs while they were still young teens. That alone was my greatest achievement. My grandkids don't have a clue about how close they came to being third generation JW clones. Even my JW parents recognized that my girls were light years ahead of their JW cousins in almost every way - and mentioned it to me several times before they passed. The JW cousins were mostly an embarrassment to them.
I am sure that JWs from the 1950s would not recognize or enjoy the JW.org version of today's cult as they did. The JWs of 2016 would think that the JWs of that era were far too liberal and perhaps deserving of reproof or DFing compared to current standards. (We teens would hold hands, neck, and even kiss each other in those days - but nothing else!)
The JWs of that long past era would most certainly ask why the Society would sell off and rebuild a completely comfortable and serviceable Kingdom Hall located right in the middle of a good neighborhood or refuse to rent low-cost commercial spaces close to where JWs live - rather than packing 3-5 congregations into one remote building out at the edge of town or in another city.
End of my ramble...
JV
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Vanilla ISIS & Y'All Qaeda: Oregon Gunmen Mocked On Social Media
by Simon ini'm crying laughing at some of the hashtags in this article:.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/yall-qaeda-vanilla-isis_568a3421e4b06fa68882bb6d.
if this does one thing, it shows up the craziness of the claim that an armed militia "standing up to the government" has any role in a modern democratic society.
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Juan Viejo2
What some observers and reporters miss is the fact that a lot of these "right to carry" and other right-wing gunslingers carrying their military rifles and toting their .45s are really hoping for is that the FBI, the National Guard, and the local police all show up to usher them off of so-called "public lands" and they are forced to take a stand and actually shoot somebody.
I applaud the state and federal government policing groups from taking a more cautious and sane approach to these wackos. Instead of playing to their propaganda that the Feds are there to "take away their guns and right to bear arms," law enforcement seems to be taking the reasoned way of waiting them out and proving that they are just gun-toting wackos with a distorted view of what their "constitutional rights" really are.
But I think that very soon, if not in central Oregon or the panhandle of Idaho, somewhere there will be another similar event and someone will pull out their pistol and shoot someone - maybe even a government officer. The urge to force the federal and state governments into a gun battle seems just too strong at the moment and there are not enough "cooler heads" on the side of the neo-Nazis and "free range cowboys" to prevent "an accident" from happening.
Even in my own somewhat upper-middle-class politically mixed neighborhood in central Oregon, I hear things and notice things that tell me that even my own neighbors are all buying the propaganda that "Obama wants to take our guns away and enforce Sharia laws on us all." Think I'm kidding? Not really. I can count the number of minority residents and liberal voters in my area with my clenched fist. So to have these gun-toting jerks show up in south-central Oregon packing heat and carrying military rifles is no surprise. Outside of Portland and Eugene these guys (and their guns) are more than welcome by much of the local population.
They knew exactly what they were doing and what to expect when they came to make a stand in Oregon. I just hope no one gets seriously hurt.
JV
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Can't Understand Why This Is Allowed
by mariet ini moved to roseburg, oregon.
the jehovah's witnesses are allowed to set up a display and man it right outside of the local library, and they are there every day and hour the library is open.
i am [redacted], the director of the douglas county library system and wanted to respond to your website email of december 11, 2015. i have consulted with the county attorneys office about your concern about jehovahs witnesses use of the front porch of the library building in roseburg, and my understanding of the law is as follows.. .
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Juan Viejo2
MarieT - another Oregonian here. I never see them anywhere here in the capital city - I'm sure they are out there, but they hide out very well.
I might suggest that you write another appeal to the Library admin and send them some quotes from WT literature that are negative toward JWs reading other books and literature and being negative about their own children (and adults) from getting a higher education. In effect, they are distributing literature and expounding on their logic of all worldly books and expanded learning in world affairs, politics, other religions, and science - essentially exactly why the library exists in the first place - providing those books, periodicals, videos, and other resources to the community.
Maybe that will get their attention. They could ask JW representatives to come and meet with them and explain their public rejection of higher education and worldly learning. Have them ask for samples of WT literature encouraging their kids to go to the library frequently, to study science and history - or to read classic literature. Since none of that exists, but plenty of WT literature is available that rejects "worldly learning," maybe they would treat the WT reps the same way as they would someone passing out racist or inflammatory political tracts. Ask them if they would let Hari Krishnas dance on the steps and beg for money? Would they let the Westboro Church set up on the steps and wave their anti-gay and anti-veteran signs?
Ask them if they would be willing to let any church, cult, or radical political group set up racks on the steps? Maybe you could go to other nearby communities and ask their library administrators if they would let JWs set up on their steps or in their lobbies. If not, ask them why not and how they would stop the JWs from doing that? Have the city council pass a law or a set of guidelines that the library could refer to?
Even if you fail completely, just think of the great anti-witness you would present as you visit all these community leaders. Sometimes politicians can get their lawyers to find an angle that will work. On the other hand, who knows? Maybe the WT is looking for a "freedom of religion" case they can promote to divert everyone from all the child abuse cases they are involved in.
JV
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Transfer of Bank Balances and Kingdom Halls.
by kramer intwo things related to ongoing comments regarding forgiving of loans / transfer of balances to the wtbs and the ownership of kingdom halls.
firstly, i would argue that congregations don't care that bank balances have been transferred to the society.
i would contend that people contribute to the preaching work, and that's it , so long as there is enough in the bank to maintain the hall with a reasonable reserve, then i doubt many would argue against it.
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Juan Viejo2
If the Watchtower is really hurting for money and want the massive outflow to stop, I have three suggestions for them:
1. Stop protecting pedophiles and other criminals in Kingdom Halls. Report them to the police and let the courts handle the cases. Guess what? No more lawsuits for millions of dollars from injured victims and innocent children. They have to know in their hearts that Jehovah really does not want them to protect criminals - and he certainly does not want those criminals among his followers. The only reason the Watchtower is being sued is the fact that they have interjected the local (untrained and unsympathetic) elders into decision-making situations that should be left to the victims, their families, and the police. [Does the Watchtower ever really gain anyone worthwhile from their prison ministries? Other than conscientious objectors who were already JWs, why would you want to have murderers, rapists, thieves and con-men joining and showing up in your Kingdom Halls? Let them come on their own - don't recruit them.]
2. Let individual Jehovah's Witnesses follow their own conscience when a blood transfusion is required. Let them take responsibility for their own lives. If punishment by God is involved, let them and Jehovah sort it out.
3. Encourage young JWs to get higher educations. Let them get smart and trained in advanced skills so that they can make higher incomes and then contribute more to the "world-wide preaching work." They've already got enough poorly educated members in their organization - why not have a few smart ones? Just think - let the colleges teach the brothers how to write, speak in public, debate others, do research for the publications. One reason the Mormons are so successful is that most of their young people of both sexes are college educated. Ever hear of Brigham Young University? Yes, one of the best in the United States - and it even has non-Mormons attending. Maybe a few well-educated and trained brothers and sisters in the writing department will bring some life back to the books and hand-out literature.
JV
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Transfer of Bank Balances and Kingdom Halls.
by kramer intwo things related to ongoing comments regarding forgiving of loans / transfer of balances to the wtbs and the ownership of kingdom halls.
firstly, i would argue that congregations don't care that bank balances have been transferred to the society.
i would contend that people contribute to the preaching work, and that's it , so long as there is enough in the bank to maintain the hall with a reasonable reserve, then i doubt many would argue against it.
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Juan Viejo2
This eventual takeover was foreshadowed by the Menlo Park, California Kingdom Hall takeover back in 2011-2012. The Watchtower Society not only took over the Kingdom Hall that had been paid for (and paid off completely) with private and local funds, but disfellowshipped the then current elders (who were also board of trustees for the property) when they objected.
The whole story has been replayed many times on this forum and also on Ex-JW.com and YouTube. In spite of the unforeseen events and final disposition of the Menlo Park affair, no one could see that within just a few months after the State Court ruled in favor of the Watchtower on a case relating to alleged bank fraud and deed issues - and the United States District Court for Region 9 refused to act on complaints filed there, the mold for the future was cast.
Essentially both courts, by their rulings and rejection of the BOE complaints, opened the door for the Watchtower to take over every Kingdom Hall in the United States with impunity, whether those halls were financed by the Watchtower Society or completely with local funds and private gifts.
Just think back 5 years and realize how far things have progressed. The Watchtower has become even more of a real estate holding company than a publishing company. Yes, they still do some printing, but compared to the heydays of 1950- 2000, "publishing" has mostly just become a front for them. Now it's all about buying and selling properties, mostly in the United States. They are now reaping the rewards of all those volunteer hours and donations that were used to buy, expand, and build from scratch the many buildings bought at fire-sale prices dating back to the 1920s.
To think that they have already sold off well over a billion dollars in properties in New York and Brooklyn, but now have another billion-plus offer for several more buildings - and they still own more than a dozen others in New York. A "billion" (or a thousand-million in most other countries) is a very, very big number - even if it is only an accounting entry in some bank account. I could pay off most of my debt and go out to dinner once a week with a billion dollars.
The Watchtower is pleading poverty, but that is just more of their misdirection. Like a magician, they say "look over there" while what they are really doing is going on behind their back or being manipulated inside their jacket or up their sleeves. A billion dollars could pay every JW child abuse victim a substantial amount, and they would still have a ton of assets - not counting what comes in every month.
Like the fictional Wizard hiding behind the curtain, their act is all smoke, mirrors and self-puffery. Some day they will be exposed for what they have been doing. Eventually, some right-hearted Bethel attorney or officer in the organization will see the light and want to do the right thing - and expose all of the black secrets behind that curtain.
Ray Franz did it once. There just has to be another brave soul who will eventually come out and tell the truth.
May that day come soon...
JV
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Watchtower Web Domains
by Petraglyph ini did some reverse domain lookups to see what web domains were linked to watchtower.
i did reverse lookups on the hostmaster address, building address, and phone number.
i've sorted and deduplicated the results.. bethelres.org.
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Juan Viejo2
A company or individual will often buy up a whole series of domain names that might have some connection to them or their corporate websites.
In the case of the Watchtower, they may have wanted to get ahead of the game once they decided to dive in to the deep end of the Internet pool.
You never know when some "apostate" webmaster or group might grab a domain that is close to a site name that you plan to build your image around. Several popular websites had to rethink their own domain names or abandon them entirely and start over because someone grabbed a similar domain that might create problems later.
Sometimes they find that someone else has a very similar name that already is either very popular (thereby creating the possibility of trademark confusion) or has been used for some nefarious deed (former porn or scam site). Potential competitors, enemies or scoundrels might grab a dot net or dot info domain and then make it seem to associated with your site in some way - and then use those domains to trash your reputation.
Some of the above are not live and make no sense at all - but may have been used as test sites. With very unusual domain names few people would be likely to stumble across them before they are ready. It's easy enough to build a new site on a bogus domain that no one will stumble across or a subdomain that no one would be looking for (i.e., http://subdomain.domain.com).
With most new domain names available for between $7 and $25 US, a big corporation could buy up dozens and never use them - and then just let them expire after a year or two if they are not needed.
JV
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Is it true? Heard a rumor WT postphones Disfellowshipping until further notice!!??
by Olivia Wilde ini am not sure if it's true but i heard from a good source that wt has given instructions to elders to postponed disfellowshipping members from wrong doing/gross sin until further instructions given by headquarters.
i heard some jws were just reproved either privately or publically.
has anyone else heard anything like this recently?
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Juan Viejo2
I was a JW for about 15 years. I finally left for good when my parents and siblings left our home and moved to Nebraska - where the need was greater. For several years between the mid-1960s and early to mid-1970s, my parents knew I was disfellowshipped, but since I did not live nearby we only saw each other for a week at a time every couple of years when I would travel to see them and would stay in their home. Our relationship was basically OK and cordial because I was only there for a week or so.
In the early to mid-1970s, my father wrote a letter to me and my brother telling us that he could no longer visit us and we could not visit and stay in his home. He told us that my mother was broken up over this new guideline, but she had agreed to abide by the Watchtower's guidance. (My father was an elder at the time). He felt that this was Jehovah's way to get my brother and I back into the Truth before Armageddon arrived in 1975.
Around 1978-79, he wrote me a letter and told me that he and my mother could once again invite us to visit and stay in their home. All was back to normal - except that we could not discuss doctrine (he could preach to me, but not me to him). He asked me to inform my brother of the new relaxed rules. He accepted all the blame for his own misunderstanding of the new guidelines (and also his belief in the 1975 prophecy). Sometime around late 1981 or early 1982, one of my grandparents died and the funeral was held in Oklahoma. My father and mother traveled from their home and I met them at my grandparents home. All was well for the most part. The funeral was in a Baptist Church (my grandparents) and both my father and mother were there, as was I and my then wife.
After the funeral, my father called me aside and told me that he wanted to talk to me privately. He was near tears and told me that my mother was terribly upset by new developments. Once again he and my mother would have to shun my brother and I. I did not know it at the time, but this sudden change of direction was due to the Bethel "apostasy" and the DFing of Raymond Franz. I was very angry at the Watchtower's flip-flops and challenged my father to think it all through and see the complete lack of love (or logic) to the restored and expanded shunning policy.
While both my brother and I were disfellowshipped for "fornicating" with our wives before marriage, we had done nothing else, were raising good kids, and were good citizens. We honored and respected our parents and supported them in a myriad of ways. My father knew we were as good or better than 90% of the members of his Kingdom Hall - and were far more loving and supporting than our JW sister was to them.
Years later, during a conversation after my mother's funeral, my father and I talked for a bit about the shunning issue. He was not the brightest bulb in the room, but he recognized then that if the WT did away with shunning, they would have an exodus out of the cult like they did after the failure of the 1975 prophecy when nearly a third of JWs left the society for at least some period of time. He knew that the little Kingdom Hall he went to with about 30% teenagers would be nearly empty in a matter of months if shunning was no longer practiced. He still hoped my brother and I would return to "the Truth," but realized that was our past, not our future.
Can I believe that the Watchtower might pull a new "shunning policy" out of their hat? I do - in fact I see it happening relatively soon. They will start by redefining "sinful" practices. They may even allow a small amount of dissent among the members - as long as they keep their doubts to themselves. They may ignore faders and just leave them alone - as long as they do not commit sinful activities or become known apostates. They will probably ignore private actions between unmarried adults as long as what they do is kept private and is limited in scope.
I also see the possibility that more things will become "matters of conscience" - let Jehovah decide who is sinning and who are just pushing the boundaries a bit.
I also see them suggesting more monetary contributions to the Kingdom Hall and preaching work by individuals, leaving them be as long as they are putting money in the pot each month.
Many of you will disagree with me. But like I mentioned several paragraphs above - this has already happened at various times in my life within my own family. I have cousins who are JWs (one who is currently an elder) - who have been DF'd and resuscitated several times in past years. Many Kingdom Halls essentially have revolving doors, members being DF'd several times over the years, and now they are back in good standing once again.
Remember, all you have to really do to get back your family and friends is say your sorry, that you repent, and that you believe in Jehovah. They want you back. They need your money...
JV
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Juan Viejo2
VI - yes, if you do a few Google searches you should find complete song books (PDF) from several eras. They are out there - just keep looking. If you can't find them, ask Atlantis! or Barney if they have versions they can email you. Bet they do...
JV
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Juan Viejo2
In the 1950s and 60s it seemed that everyone's favorite Kingdom song was "Take Sides with Jehovah." In my Kingdom Hall, everyone would sing that - even the little kids. It was easy to remember, had a positive message and a very pleasant tune.
When at the larger assemblies that had orchestras, that song would always get played, often as a beginning or end selection. Everyone would be on their feet and singing along and it would always get huge applause afterwards.
In the 1980s and 1990s when I attended my parents funerals, they played the Kingdom Songs on a tape recorder and through the speakers. I was not impressed at all. The songs seemed jumbled and hard to follow - and most of the JWs who had songbooks with them would try to follow along but had difficulty with the tunes.
The ones I've heard played for recent conventions are very difficult to understand and most everyone just mumbles along. But even after all the years I've been out, I can still remember the tune to "Take Sides..."
Chorus:
"Take sides with Jehovah;
Make him your delight;
He'll never forsake you;
Walk e're in his light;
Tell, tell the glad tidings of freedom and peace;
His rule by Christ Jesus will ever in - crease."
Many of the songs in that old book used well-known tunes from existing church hymns and national songs, so they were quite easy to follow and sing along to. I sure don't see that with the newer song books.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy7nuXmAMXA (... a later version, but close to the older version)
JV